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Version 0.8.22

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  • EmileEmile Administrator, Athom
    OK well, it's building, took somewhat longer than we hoped. Will ship it tomorrow, promised :-)
  • TheoDeKoningTheoDeKoning Member
    That is 26 hours longer waiting. o:)  ;)

  • MarcoWijkMarcoWijk Member
    Panda said:
    Here is your "No progress what so ever"
    I have the feeling that a lot of kickstarter backers here aren't kickstarter material but just regular customers that want their product fast. Kickstarter is about investing in an idea/product and in return for helping the startup you "might" get a product in return, this includes all the baby steps to become a grown product which will one day be full retail ready.

    If you can't handle this just sell your Homey and come back when it is available in retail stores, otherwise act like a real "geek" and deal with the bugs and be part of an amazing journey into following Homey getting grown up.


    You are sooo right. I for one, am not a typical kickstarter. I'm just an investor who wants his money spent well. I think, as there are just 11 or so who spent E399 or more in an idea they believe in, should at least have the right to complain as they wish.  Not to be put aside a statement like yours, because our investment gave you something new to play with...probably for free...
  • DaneeDeKruyffDaneeDeKruyff Member
    Well spoken @marcowijk
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    @MarcoWijk ;
    +infinity 


  • TheoDeKoningTheoDeKoning Member
    Thanks @MarcoWijk, your hit for me the nail on his head. That's what I feels too.

    You look not only for bugs but also to a way to make the project runs smoothly and quickly as possible.
    Selling Homey's is namely the only way of income for Athom.

    See my remarks in this light. <3
  • ErwinVriezeErwinVrieze Member
    edited March 2016
    Panda said:
    Here is your "No progress what so ever"
    I have the feeling that a lot of kickstarter backers here aren't kickstarter material but just regular customers that want their product fast. Kickstarter is about investing in an idea/product and in return for helping the startup you "might" get a product in return, this includes all the baby steps to become a grown product which will one day be full retail ready.

    If you can't handle this just sell your Homey and come back when it is available in retail stores, otherwise act like a real "geek" and deal with the bugs and be part of an amazing journey into following Homey getting grown up.


    Apparently you refer to me .... I can tell you This was my 10th kickstarter from which most were delivered in beta stage, but when I reported bugs, they would take it serious.... at Homey till now, i really see no real progress: (almost) all issue's I've encountered still exist, time zone: still not fixed, infra red ... still not reliable, NFC either, sometimes it works mostly not :-) I tried to give some decent reporting, but apparently they don't care (more occupied with "known"backers?
    The fact things are not working, is something I can accept, but I see new apps raining in the "app store" I'd rather see basic functionality improving, but even simply things as "OK Homey" still doesn't give a proper response (despite the fact with voice training my is recognized right away, I only have to say 5 times OK Homey to get through the training""
    Also the constant server errors ... the problem s there if you have an issue with something, every time you'll have have to start all over to determine it's a server error and not the functionality you are working on.
    I will emphasize I really appreciate the HARD work of the guys !!!!! but please get he basics stabil first ....
  • TheoDeKoningTheoDeKoning Member
    The slack quote is passed here already a few times but now I take the courage to react on the last post there.

    Its shows that what you write here @ErwinVrieze , and others, about the feelings of standing still or even falling back is coming from.
    My point of view about repair bugs and new stuff in one version is known I hope so I leave that out here.
  • ErwinVriezeErwinVrieze Member
    TheoDeKoning said:
    The slack quote is passed here already a few times but now I take the courage to react on the last post there.

    Its shows that what you write here @ErwinVrieze , and others, about the feelings of standing still or even falling back is coming from.
    My point of view about repair bugs and new stuff in one version is known I hope so I leave that out here.
    That's your opinion, but I'm working the high tech industry, and our customers like stability better then new features ... and as I understood, Homey is intended to be sold commercially .... 
  • EvertorNEvertorN Member
    edited March 2016
    What most people seem to forget is that the technology that is required to make Homey work smoothly is really complex. For example, a properly working 'OK Homey' trigger takes A LOT of finetuning. This fine tuning is done based on the training samples that are currently being sent by the people that already have a Homey. So yes, this does take a lot of time.

    Furthermore, Homey uses a lot of different techniques that require a wide variety of programming skills. The people who are building apps use a different programming language than the people that are working on the 'OK Homey' trigger, or the people that are working on Z-Wave / IR etc. Hence, it seems Athom doesn't get their priorities straight, while they are actually doing all they can with the resources they have. The fact that apps are 'raining' in the app store, is because there are a lot of committed community developers (like myself) that enjoy building apps for Homey. This has nothing to do with Athom not caring about the Homey-related issues.

    Do I think Athom can be more transparant in their communication? Yes I do. But they are too busy fixing stuff and making sure Homey becomes stable to get the pre-order batch out, so I kind of get the lack of communication.

    I don't get what you guys want? I mean, realisticly. Of course the answer is going to be 'I want a fully functional Homey in my livingroom tomorrow'. That's not going to happen. I mean, if they send out updates, it's the progress you complain about. If they are working and making progress, it's the lack of communication that's an issue. Seriously, what does Athom have to do to keep you guys happy?
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited March 2016
    @EvertorN ;;;
    For example, a properly working 'OK Homey' trigger takes A LOT of finetuning. This fine tuning is done based on the training samples that are currently being sent by the people that already have a Homey. So yes, this does take a lot of time.

    https://dev.athom.com/heyhomey/

    I used it multiple times to provide samples and dozens of geeks have spend days on shouting to homey.... how much samples do the need??? :open_mouth: 

    We all have the video's with great responsive homey's, working HUE, switch KaKu lights, etc. etc. Now a lot (maybe most) homeys are silent sittings ducks....

  • ArjanArjan Member
    MarcoF said:
    @EvertorN ;;
    For example, a properly working 'OK Homey' trigger takes A LOT of finetuning. This fine tuning is done based on the training samples that are currently being sent by the people that already have a Homey. So yes, this does take a lot of time.

    https://dev.athom.com/heyhomey/

    I used it multiple times to provide samples and dozens of geeks have spend days on shouting to homey.... how much samples do the need??? :open_mouth: 

    More female samples ;)
  • EvertorNEvertorN Member
    MarcoF said:
    @EvertorN ;;
    For example, a properly working 'OK Homey' trigger takes A LOT of finetuning. This fine tuning is done based on the training samples that are currently being sent by the people that already have a Homey. So yes, this does take a lot of time.

    https://dev.athom.com/heyhomey/

    I used it multiple times to provide samples and dozens of geeks have spend days on shouting to homey.... how much samples do the need??? :open_mouth: 

    For which Athom is very thankful. Now give them the time to use your samples to create a perfect trigger. If you're wondering why this is taking so long, search the web for 'machine learning algorithms'
  • MarcoWijkMarcoWijk Member
    ErwinVrieze said:
    Panda said:
    Here is your "No progress what so ever"
    I have the feeling that a lot of kickstarter backers here aren't kickstarter material but just regular customers that want their product fast. Kickstarter is about investing in an idea/product and in return for helping the startup you "might" get a product in return, this includes all the baby steps to become a grown product which will one day be full retail ready.

    If you can't handle this just sell your Homey and come back when it is available in retail stores, otherwise act like a real "geek" and deal with the bugs and be part of an amazing journey into following Homey getting grown up.


    Apparently you refer to me .... I can tell you This was my 10th kickstarter from which most were delivered in beta stage, but when I reported bugs, they would take it serious.... at Homey till now, i really see no real progress: (almost) all issue's I've encountered still exist, time zone: still not fixed, infra red ... still not reliable, NFC either, sometimes it works mostly not :-) I tried to give some decent reporting, but apparently they don't care (more occupied with "known"backers?
    The fact things are not working, is something I can accept, but I see new apps raining in the "app store" I'd rather see basic functionality improving, but even simply things as "OK Homey" still doesn't give a proper response (despite the fact with voice training my is recognized right away, I only have to say 5 times OK Homey to get through the training""
    Also the constant server errors ... the problem s there if you have an issue with something, every time you'll have have to start all over to determine it's a server error and not the functionality you are working on.
    I will emphasize I really appreciate the HARD work of the guys !!!!! but please get he basics stable first ....
    +100

    @ErwinVrieze Glad to see that a more experienced kickstarter has put this in perspective for us, or at least me,as a first-timer. It's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Ofcourse I know some stuff just doesn't work in a beta fase, but the problems we discuss in here are the same as 3 months ago, and thats what is/was bugging me. 

    I might be negative sometimes, but i DO appreciate the efforts that are made. From the start i've been hammering on getting the basics working right. IR, Z-Wave, RF, bluetooth, speech-control and NFC (although the last one worked in every version for me). The effort people make to develope apps are really apreciated, but at this stage the focus of the Athom guys should be on the basics.
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited March 2016
    EvertorN said:
    MarcoF said:
    @EvertorN ;;;;
    For example, a properly working 'OK Homey' trigger takes A LOT of finetuning. This fine tuning is done based on the training samples that are currently being sent by the people that already have a Homey. So yes, this does take a lot of time.

    https://dev.athom.com/heyhomey/

    I used it multiple times to provide samples and dozens of geeks have spend days on shouting to homey.... how much samples do the need??? open_mouth 

    For which Athom is very thankful. Now give them the time to use your samples to create a perfect trigger. If you're wondering why this is taking so long, search the web for 'machine learning algorithms'
    That tool is available since 1,5 year (Oct 17 2014)

    There also ~500 homeys in the wild for 5weeks and lets say every homey receives a average of 30 voice commands/trainings a day;
    500(homeys) * 35(days) * 30(voice commands) = 525.000 voice samples.

    But with maybe 10-20 homeys at the Athom office which are used intensively for about 1 year this could be way more samples and maybe reach easily >1.000.000 samples.

    How much samples do the need?
  • JorienSteenbergenJorienSteenbergen Member
    MarcoF said:
    EvertorN said:
    MarcoF said:
    @EvertorN ;;
    For example, a properly working 'OK Homey' trigger takes A LOT of finetuning. This fine tuning is done based on the training samples that are currently being sent by the people that already have a Homey. So yes, this does take a lot of time.

    https://dev.athom.com/heyhomey/

    I used it multiple times to provide samples and dozens of geeks have spend days on shouting to homey.... how much samples do the need??? :open_mouth: 

    For which Athom is very thankful. Now give them the time to use your samples to create a perfect trigger. If you're wondering why this is taking so long, search the web for 'machine learning algorithms'
    That tool is available since 1,5 year (Oct 17 2014)

    And you think you just copy/paste it into the code and it works like a charm?!?!? 
    If that was the case there would already be dozens of homey alike products on the market, machine learning is a very complex process and implementing this into a product takes a lot of time, effort and determination.
    It took the biggest IT companies in the world years to get it working(kinda) and you think a small company like Athom could do that in a few weeks?!?!

    I do understand it can be frustrating for people when an update intruduces new bugs that weren't there before. But you have to understand that getting a product like Homey to work stable is a major undertaking. I mean all this hardware like bluetooth, nfc, z-wave, 433, etc etc all have their own specifications and protocols that have to work together seemless.

    You have to see all these hardware components need their own piece of code and all those pieces of code have to work together and they have to work with the flow editor. If there's a bug in one of those pieces of code it will surely affect the other pieces also. 

    What i am trying to say is that Homey is more complex technicaly and in software than most products on the market so it will have more bugs than most products in the beta stage. I am sure the guys at Athom work their buts of to stabilize it as soon as they can. I mean the .22 update was pushed at 11:30 pm so they were still at work then when most of you were already sleeping.

    Having your own small company is hard work and i'm sure they work more hours a week than most of you work in a month. Starting your own company doesn't mean you work 9 to 5, believe me i know and bitching around does not work very stimulating. Give these guys some time, or sell your Homey(you won't a have problem selling it) and stop bitching.
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited March 2016
    And you think you just copy/paste it into the code and it works like a charm?!?!? 
    If that was the case there would already be dozens of homey alike products on the market, machine learning is a very complex process and implementing this into a product takes a lot of time, effort and determination.
    It took the biggest IT companies in the world years to get it working(kinda) and you think a small company like Athom could do that in a few weeks?!?!

    I don't say its easy, but Voice is the main pillar of Homey and I hope the are already working on this for 2 years 24/7 and Emile was using Voice way before Homey got into development.


     I mean all this hardware like bluetooth, nfc, z-wave, 433, etc etc all have their own specifications and protocols that have to work together seemless.

    You have to see all these hardware components need their own piece of code and all those pieces of code have to work together and they have to work with the flow editor. If there's a bug in one of those pieces of code it will surely affect the other pieces also. 

    If a bug in one piece of code for one hardware component causes a multiple components go down.... then the bindings/dependencies between devices are not OK and shows the code is not component specific.

  • EvertorNEvertorN Member
    MarcoF said:
    And you think you just copy/paste it into the code and it works like a charm?!?!? 
    If that was the case there would already be dozens of homey alike products on the market, machine learning is a very complex process and implementing this into a product takes a lot of time, effort and determination.
    It took the biggest IT companies in the world years to get it working(kinda) and you think a small company like Athom could do that in a few weeks?!?!

    I don't say its easy, but Voice is the main pillar of Homey and I hope the are already working on this for 2 years 24/7 and Emile was using Voice way before Homey got into development.

    You don't think it would be possible that some other dude pressed play when Stefan said 'Homey, play music by Greenday' in their marketing video? (Yes that was sarcasm). It is very ignorant to think they had speech working perfectly 2 years ago..
  • JorienSteenbergenJorienSteenbergen Member
    0.8.24 is installing at this moment, let's see what it brings :-)

  • TheoDeKoningTheoDeKoning Member
    https://forum.athom.com/discussion/977/version-0-8-24#
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    EvertorN said:
    MarcoF said:
    And you think you just copy/paste it into the code and it works like a charm?!?!? 
    If that was the case there would already be dozens of homey alike products on the market, machine learning is a very complex process and implementing this into a product takes a lot of time, effort and determination.
    It took the biggest IT companies in the world years to get it working(kinda) and you think a small company like Athom could do that in a few weeks?!?!

    I don't say its easy, but Voice is the main pillar of Homey and I hope the are already working on this for 2 years 24/7 and Emile was using Voice way before Homey got into development.

    You don't think it would be possible that some other dude pressed play when Stefan said 'Homey, play music by Greenday' in their marketing video? (Yes that was sarcasm). It is very ignorant to think they had speech working perfectly 2 years ago..
    Its not that i say its worked 2 years ago, the only thing i said is that the had >2 years to get is work properly.
    The should have hundreds of thousands of samples, the have the hardware, so its the software and it looks to me the try to reinvent the wheel.

    Just before the Geek shipment we saw a video and a 1-2 week later Geeks didn't get the demo'd features/functions/flows working. But it looks like i'm the only one who things that's strange.

    The new update again give a very inconsistent view on voice results.

    I known and realize Homey is a very complex product;
    https://forum.athom.com/discussion/comment/10537/#Comment_10537

    Hoped the had more progressed in getting stable.
  • JorienSteenbergenJorienSteenbergen Member
    Voice is not locking the homey up anymore, and it seems to not trigger to random noise anymore. It's just a bit harder to trigger the voice commands, but i guess that will have to do with the new speach engine that needs some time to adjust. Further testing will be done late this evening. 433 seems to work again, so i'm happy for now :-)

  • EdTstEdTst Member
    JorienSteenbergen said:
    Voice is not locking the homey up anymore, and it seems to not trigger to random noise anymore. It's just a bit harder to trigger the voice commands, but i guess that will have to do with the new speach engine that needs some time to adjust. Further testing will be done late this evening. 433 seems to work again, so i'm happy for now :-)


    Homey on 0.8.24 triggers to noise all the time here. It has become even worse now.
This discussion has been closed.