Trouble getting IR buttons to be recognised

shardphoenix

I have two issues with my IR settings.

1. I have a universal remote which controls my TV/Set Top Box/Soundbar/Apple TV. They all work. However Homey does not always recognise the buttons I press. I keep them pressed for three seconds en release. Sometimes a button is shown, another time not. Sometimes a button works, another time  a button does not work. Where do I need to point...just at homey right. That should be enough. I tried different distances from 1-5 meters. All with mixed results. How is your experience with it? What am I doing wrong?
2. It is not possible to edit a device after, to e.g. add or remove an IR button. This is very inconvenient to say the least! I will add a feature request to Athom.

bvdbos

1) it also helps to push the button multiple times very quickly. Also, turning off the led-ring seems to work:
2) there are multiple issues already:
edit device
import-export
GUI for IR

DieterKoblenz

In short.. give it up until they make IR descent (not a solid advice I know, but thats what I am doing now).. 

shardphoenix

Ok that's clear. yes it has too many bugs for it to work properly.
I know it is a new product but still...it should have these basics under control. I thought Homey was way ahead of it's competitors but they should hurry up fixing these basic functions.

bvdbos

IR is not really basic, old is a better description. Much harder than http or 433...

MarcoF

Homey is sold with IR as a basic feature;

Wireless Connectivity

• Wi-Fi ® 802.11b/g/n 2.4 GHz 

• Bluetooth ® 4.0 Low Energy 1 

• ZigBee ® 2.4 GHz 2

• Z-Wave Plus ™ 

• 434 MHz 

• 868 MHz 

• Infrared Receiver 

• Infrared Transmitter (6x) 

• NFC (ISO14443A)

Doesn't really matter how old the technology is. 
Infect the first IR remotes are from begin '80 and the first http transmission was late '80.
So IR is about 35 years "old" and HTTP is 27 years "old".

And then the question is;
What's old?

shardphoenix

Since I am very inpatient I have been trying to get IR to work but it is hopeless. Turning the LED ring off does not make any difference. I have tried different angles, distances, remote controllers (OEM and universal aftermarket once), etc. All with no succes.

honey

The first upsetting thing that they have mislead (polite expression) us regarding the range and ignored every question regarding the angles.
The other upsetting thing is that all the firmware related issues are known how long now 4-6 months? The recent updates tackled none of the major issues (not just the IR). It is a `complicated technology`. Really? Or it just out of their comfort zone? A £10 Chinese universal remote can do what Homey can`t.

ZperX

Carrying on with the IR conversation started in 0.8.36 topic. @MarcoF You are absolutely right that some of the IR diodes are covered. In my case it is one, it seems like a design issue not a moulding defect. The far back left diode happens to be behind the LED ring diffuser.

• Also it seems like there are not 6 transmitters only 5 + 1 receiver at the front. 

• We already knew the issue that IR diodes sits too deep making beam extra tight
• MarcoF pointed out that some transmitters are not at the slots
• By having a closer look I have noticed one other major issue. The IR chips sits not just too deep but too low. The centre of the diodes are in the line of the edge of the bottom semi-sphere. It should be at center of the slot. It looks like this:

MarcelKuijper

I did notise the same thing, im going to try and make the holes line up better with a dremel tomorrow. Ill get back with the results.

HansieNL

As I  read this conversation I get the impression that Homey's IR is not tested very well. I hope that I'm wrong.

ZperX

HansieNL said:

As I  read this conversation I get the impression that Homey's IR is not tested very well. I hope that I'm wrong.

The original IR solution was to have transmitter at the top of the sphere. Which was good idea (look Logitech Hub and Neeo). If the beam goes to the ceiling it gets a wide spread and the ceilings usually have good reflection factors. Than Athom moved it to the LED ring. That could be OK as well if there is a good optical engineering behind that (that is a very hard thing do well). I reckon they have tested most of the prototypes without the LED ring diffuser and the top cover. Than they did the expensive moldings which I reckon they did not want to scrap. And when it was all assembled they realised that IR barely works. Than they did some achievable changes Link1 Link2. 

ZperX

I see 5 solutions here:

• The one mentioned by @MarcelKuijper . Looking forwards to the results especially how that will look like Aesthetically
• Raise the level PCB with 1mm spacer rings. However that will make the LED ring more `spotty`. It is already not too homogeneous.
• Soldering. Take out some of the IR diodes solder them on a wire and place them somewhere else (behind one bigger opening, IR window or outside of homey)
• Accept the situation as it is and buy a 3rd party device like a Logitech HUB or Neeo. However that would hurt the pocket more and would not be the best PR.
• It is not a software issue so it is covered by warranty.... However we don`t really want to hurt Athom so it would be better if they could advise how could we sort this out ourselves. 

DieterKoblenz

ZperX said:

• It is not a software issue so it is covered by warranty.... However we don`t really want to hurt Athom so it would be better if they could advise how could we sort this out ourselves. 

Let me get you out of your dream. There is no warranty for the kickstarter homeys.. And even if there was warranty I highly doubt it applies to this specific "issue". 

ZperX

Why that rude tone? Pre ordered products falls under the EU warranty regulations. If a product does not operate as advertised than that regulation can be applied. But as I said that is not a preferred avenue, we are Greeks and they are a startup. 

MarcelKuijper

MarcelKuijper said:

I did notise the same thing, im going to try and make the holes line up better with a dremel tomorrow. Ill get back with the results.

fixed the hole's, just have to to test ir now. the girlfriend is using the remotes atm so will test that tomorrow.
what i did notise is that i found only 5 ir transmitters/receivers. ill take homey apart tomorrow and see what else i can find.

this is a preview for now.

HansieNL

ZperX said:

Why that rude tone? Pre ordered products falls under the EU warranty regulations. If a product does not operate as advertised than that regulation can be applied. But as I said that is not a preferred avenue, we are Greeks and they are a startup. 

What about pre-orders?

ZperX

@HansieNL Kickstarter backers did not buy a product they supported a project and in return they got a `present`. Pre-order is a normal business transaction so the product comes with 2 years warranty. However can`t raise a software related complaint as a warranty issue.

@MarcelKuijper Wow! You have a hand of a surgeon. Thanks for sharing it with us. From a medium distance it looks like it has been designed and manufactured that way. Looking forward to hear about the result.

Is it possible that not all the casings and/or PCBs are the same? Seems like you have a slot where I have the `missing` diode vice versa.

mruiter

DieterKoblenz said:

ZperX said:

• It is not a software issue so it is covered by warranty.... However we don`t really want to hurt Athom so it would be better if they could advise how could we sort this out ourselves. 

Let me get you out of your dream. There is no warranty for the kickstarter homeys.. And even if there was warranty I highly doubt it applies to this specific "issue". 

Let me get you from your pink cloud where you are dreaming.
The Homey Kickstart was a financial business transaction and so dutch law applies.
At least 3 years of hardware warranty can be forced out of Athom and probably more because the expected life of a domotica system can be up to 5 to 7 years.

When you support a project like kickstart and you get a perk this is seen as a payment in goods for youre support / founding / work. 

If you want you can let this be fixed under warrenty or report them for breaking basic dutch law.
As a buyer you are always over protected. And this message does not mean i agree because its ludicris. But hey , we all accept it that if you kill someone you just have to do funny in pieter baan and get away with it and if you drive without a seatbeld hell breaks lose

MarcelKuijper

So i have been fiddling.
first thing i notised when i had it opened up was that i had 1 ir beam completely covered (foto 1).
To me it looks like a moulding issue couse on photo 2 u can actualy see some plastic being cut away but not completly.

Then on foto 3 i found the IR receiver covered aswell did cut away some plastic as u can see on foto 4.

Then i started testing, (used a camera every time to see if homey was sending IR, this worked and he did sent every time)

Foto 5, no signal received by the tv at all.
Foto 6, homey on the right TV left, this did work if i "lined-up" the ir beam with the tv, also the beams facing horizontal, if i faced the beams looking down to the tv it did not work.
Foto 7, This also did work if i lined up the beams with the TV, turning homey slightly would result in no reception.

The sound bar under the TV is not working at all, the normal remote sometimes even has problems with reception.

I used manualy learning of the remote and only used the power button signal.
I set up a flow with my KAKU remote to press a button and it would be "converted" to IR, sending 2 button presses every test.

From this result i could say there is no IR bounching through my house from homey what so ever, only if u line up the beams with ur devices it works.
I dont know if this can be solved with software by sending more power over to the beams but it sure is a problem wich should be adressed by @Athom @Emile ;

ZperX

Thank you Marcel. It very much appreciated. Do you get the same result with `Power button signal`? The `learned` signals never worked for me but some signal from the database worked. Is there a product or any code on the other side of the IR diode? Maybe we could find a specification and an alternative.
And yes @Athom @Emile could you please comment on it?

MarcoF

@MarcelKuijper ;
Thanx and its almost the same on what I tested/experienced and found with my Homey.
Here also no bouncing, here also 1 IR led missing, here also only working IR if Homey and the receiver are lined up, here also molding/drilling residue in the IR holes. To me the holes are way to small and which results in a very narrow/"weak" IR beam.

@ZperX;
Nice drawing and founds! I also found datasheets of the (I think) used IR leds, but I "can't read them".

http://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/ir-leds/8768779/

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/13dd/0900766b813dd144.pdf

Is there somebody in the house who can explain how the beam of these Leds is formed (narrow, horizontal, wide, etc)?

fuzzybear

When looking at the data sheet there is an active area of 0.04 mm2 with a narrow half angle of 10 degrees see here http://www.embedded.com/print/4398904 for explanation.

In turn this would not require a very large hole as long as the IR is in line and not blocked as appears to be the case in the photos. If the IR is in line and is 10 mm away then a hole of approximately 2 mm would be required.

HarmStellinga

Both docs say narrowbeam.

ZperX

Good find Marco. Shame on me, I use Osram products on daily basis. Good quality, but this particular IR LED is not suitable for this application (at least not like this). It has an 10° half angle on the datasheet but according to the diagram it is more like a 5°, that is extremely narrow. And from that 10° we have to deduct the cut off made by the housing of Homey. The beam can be focused on two ways: with reflectors or with lenses (or the combination of both but  that is not really used with IR). In this one the semiconductor sits in a parabolic reflector. Most of the IR chips have lenses and they are behind a black (deep purple) IR window. The beam is rotationally symmetric.

ZperX

Logitech uses the industry standard lensed solution for the transmitter:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/JbYsjpe1LioHbVo2.huge

And also in their hub:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/XLe1D2AnFJaMPeGs
Other Hub:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/WfdTThdg32DWyy2e.huge

And they use use a bare chip for the receiver (as you don`t want to limit the beam there).

bvdbos

Do you know for sure it's the Osram LED's? Did you find a typenumber on Homey somewhere?

MarcoF

@BasVanDenBosch ;;;;
Reading @ZperX posts, its not really important which typenumber or brand it is. Its more important which LED housing and/or lenses are (not) used. 
Second I search a lot on the interwebs and there are not much IR LEDS with the seem look as used in Homey;
https://www.google.nl/search?q=smd+ir+led&source=lnms&tbm=isch
Looking at these pics, the OSRAM's look quite the same;
https://www.google.nl/search?q=SFH+4656&biw=1517&bih=756&tbm=isch&source=lnms


By using lenses its possible to get a more powerfull IR bundle and (better) bouncing?


@MarcelKuijper;
Do you have any idea (or could you measure) how big the original IR holes are and whats the distance from frontface IR-led to outside Homey's dome?

MarcelKuijper

@MarcoF ill check as soon as i get home.

Edit,

It is defenetly the osram led,
Im looking for a lens to place in front to spread the beam.

ZperX

The type number and brand could be important if we want to replace them as we need to find something with similar electrical characteristics to make sure that is compatible with the existing board. I think they are not using the one posted above as that is a 860nm IR, it would be more sensible to use the 940nm.

The IR diodes in the Logitech products have ~45° beam angle/LED (+ the optical window).

MarcoF

@ZperX;
I agree totally with you about type/brand.
What I meant with "its not really important which typenumber or brand it is", is that both Osram's with this formfactor are the same size and have the same beam(type/angle). 

What would be the benefit of 940 over 850?

@MarcelKuijper;
Thanks!

I'm playing with Visio and it looks like the margins are very small. So if alignment is not good and/or holes are partly covers by residue, then a very large part of the IR bundle is not coming out of the housing.