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Trouble getting IR buttons to be recognised

24

Comments

  • DaneeDeKruyffDaneeDeKruyff Member
    edited June 2016

    I'm seeing the same thing but my housing seems to be machined in order to open up 'windows' for the IR leds, I see this on several IR emitters:



    I also think the IR emitters (or PCB) are placed to low, in order to see the middle of an emitter you have to have an slightly elevated angle:


    When you're only seeing half of the emitter it looks like this, note that it's still elevated form the horizontal plane:



    And with the led ring on like this:


    I'm not sure what the angle of the beam is, but the hole to send the signal trough is not really good aligned:


     

    @MarcoF I think that if you find the datasheet of the LED's I think you van measure the distance from the emitter to the edge on the above picture.

  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    @DaneeDeKruyff ;
    Whoops... these pictures hurt my eyes....
    Thanks for these great pics!

    Could the fact of machined holes explain why some of my IR-holes are partly closed???
  • ZperXZperX Member
    @MarcoF ;
    The industry standard is the ~940nm. The forums also suggest that Logitech uses that band too. (But who knows it happened before that Athom went with a wrong frequency)

    Wikipedia: "Infrared wavelength: around 870 nm and 930–950 nm. Latter is preferred because water in atmosphere blocks sunlight in this wavelength making devices less susceptible to blinding."
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    Could somebody explain to may how I should read this chart?



  • KoenMartensKoenMartens Member
    edited June 2016
    MarcoF said:
    Could somebody explain to may how I should read this chart?


    To me, it appears that the left and right side (separated at horizontal axes 0 degrees) are the same, but either rotated or stretched out.
    I will focus on the right side, since that looks much easier to interpret:
    The horizontal axis is the degrees of something (I'd assume the angle).
    The vertical axis is the relative intensity (so a sort of efficiency, at which 1 is max efficiency).

    Thus, it appears that efficiency is basically max at 5 degrees, and falls of very quickly (50% efficiency at 10 degrees, 10% efficiency at 20 degrees, no efficiency at 90 degrees).
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited June 2016
    @KoenMartens ;
    Thanks and your explanation likes to make sense :) 
    So the left and right sides are "linked" like these colors? ;
    Where green left of the middle is the max IR power between angle 0-5° and on the rights side power >80%+
    Everything >5° results in a significant lower IR power.


    So the IR-beam is at it max around a angle of 5° and outside the 0°-10° the beam <50%.
    So the most important part is 0°- 5° where the beam is 80%+.

    Regarding to @DaneeDeKruyff pictures, it looks like the 0-5° part of the beam is blocked by the housing. This because the leds center point is slightly below the edge of the housing.
  • honeyhoney Member
    edited June 2016
    It is two diagram in one. The left one is a polar and the right is the linear.
    The linear helps to get more accurate readings from the diagram.

    The polar shows how it looks like in the real life. To illustrate it: lets imagine that it emits light in the visible spectrum than if you would place the chip next to the wall you would see that curve (roughly). The above polar diagram shows only half of the beam, it is rotationally symmetric.

    Example:

  • honeyhoney Member
    MarcoF said:

    So the left and right sides are "linked" like these colors? ;

    Yes.
  • KoenMartensKoenMartens Member
    edited June 2016
    @MarcoF: Yes, but you should take into account that nowhere is specified how much of an overkill 100% efficiency is. Maybe the LEDs were made so that 2-3% of intensity is still plenty to bounce around your house 20 times. Although these numbers seem unlikely, it is not specified on that image; only relative intensity is specified.
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    @KoenMartens ;
    I Agree!
    But what happens if the holes are to high and/or holes are partly covered?
    What will happen with the beam and IR power? 
  • honeyhoney Member
    edited June 2016
    @MarcoF: Yes, but you should take into account that nowhere is specified how much of an overkill 100% efficiency is. 
    That is not the efficiency that is the relative intensity I rel = f(ϕ) 

    MarcoF said:
    @KoenMartens ;;
    I Agree!
    But what happens if the holes are to high and/or holes are partly covered?
    What will happen with the beam and IR power? 
    MarcelKuijper did that without success. Seems like the IR issue has many more layers.

    I was also wondering why they use the same kind of chip as receiver? Surely you can use speakers and headphones as microphones but not the best way
  • honey said:
    That is not the efficiency that is the relative intensity I rel = f(ϕ) 
    Right. Same principle applies though.
  • Yes i did, these are the holes i did my tests with.

  • DaneeDeKruyffDaneeDeKruyff Member
    edited June 2016
    honey said:

    I was also wondering why they use the same kind of chip as receiver? Surely you can use speakers and headphones as microphones but not the best way

    You mean the IR receiver? There is a seperate IR receiver on the PCB.

    It sits 'behind' the led ring and has no 'clear' line of sight. I have not seen any difference with or without the led ring. For me the receiving of signals heavily depends on the type of signal that is used.
    When Homey is fully assembled it is able to pick up a Windows Media Center and Xbox 360 Remote (RC6 signal) even when I bounce it! But with others it doesn't recognise the signal even when pointed straight at the receiver with the top and ledring removed.

  • honeyhoney Member
    edited June 2016
    .
  • bvdbosbvdbos Member
    The six senders are completely different as the one receiver...
    https://blog.athom.com/2016/04/17/a-technical-introduction-homey/#more-25
  • honeyhoney Member
    edited June 2016
    I was typing while DaneeDeKruyff has updated his post. So ignore my last comment. Thanks Danee. I went with the IR-TX sign and transmitter was the closest with an opening on the house. AFAIK the ASA (material of the body) is not IR translucent so that`s why I was looking for the things where there is a slot. Apparently LED ring diffuser plays a role when the housing is closed.
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    @MarcoF ill check as soon as i get home.

    Edit,

    It is defenetly the osram led,
    Im looking for a lens to place in front to spread the beam.

    Did had time to measure the distance between front face of the IR led and outside dome? 
  • SommoSommo Member
    Yes i did, these are the holes i did my tests with.

    Did this resolve the IR issue?
  • dclrcqdclrcq Member
    How did you open your homey?
  • MarcelKuijperMarcelKuijper Member
    edited June 2016
    @MarcoF ; it is 3mm
    @Sommo  No check page 1 for my test results.
    @drlrcq i was able to put a Stanley knife between the top half and led ring couse of bad glue-ing.
  • @MarcelKuijper ;
    According to ur fingernails u are not working in the IT business but ur very handy with the dremel, cool!
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited June 2016
    @MarcelKuijper ;
    That short? 
    To be sure, this distance 
  • MarcelKuijperMarcelKuijper Member
    edited June 2016
    @MarcoF ; its 5 mm actualy, i broke 1 off trying to open up homey, i had to re-solder it that 1 is 3 mm now.
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited June 2016
    Here a schematic view of "the situation" around the IR-leds and holes.
    You see 4 lines coming out of the IR-led;
    The top and bottom are the 10° lines as specified in the datasheet.
    The green line and red line are the 5° lines as specified in the datasheet.

    In this situation the center of the IR-led is only 0.2mm below the hole of the housing.
    The 2 lines in the center of the beam show the "5°" which is "narrowed" by the fact the LED is lower then the bottom of the hole.


    Also did some calculations on the narrowed beam. 
    It seems that the narrow beam has, at 5 meter distance, a "surface" of only 23cm2 and is only 12cm high and 24cm wide.

    This is corresponding to my test where I noticed that my IR-extender only shows a strong signal in a very small area by tilling Homey for a few millimeter and/or degrees. 

    This image shows that the 5° beam is very narrow and a large portion of the 10° beam is also gone.
    In the image I didn't looked at whats happen if a IR-Led is place more left/right of the hole. 
    The image above shows that the IR-led is place more to the left of the hole and this will have the affect that also a large portion of the IR beam is block/gone.

    Very curious to your thoughts and feedback

  • Thanks for making that drawing @marcof it gives a good insight on what part of the signal is lost due to the housing.

    Maybe it's about time @emile or @stefan will comment on this...

  • Looks like the only solution to this problem is to replace the ir leds for wide beam leds and open up the holes like i did, or open the holes up and place widebeam lenses but idk what that will do with the strenght.
  • JulianJulian Member
    Too bad they switched from the original location on top to the placement inside the housing :-( When they announced that I already had my reservations.

    Kudo's for all the effort you guys put in locating the problems, but the downpart is that it appears that for the current user really not that much can be done to improve it (other than attack your Homey with a Dremel...).
  • SommoSommo Member
    what about replacing the "bottom cup" with a new transparent one? could it resolve? could it be cool to see homey naked :expressionless: 
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