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How do you know homey were am i?

angelus_errareangelus_errare Member
in Questions & Help
hello everybody....chief masters (emile, stefan...and all your team)

my question is ..
How do you know ' homey ' where am I? It is NFC or RFID or IBeacons .
because in the floweditor places (kitchen , bedroom, etc ) or the arrival of someone specific ( name1 , name2 , etc ) are handled example : playing a song if you enter "anna " .

beyond that, I'm excited about the potential that can homey do as well as I wish that I come home to start playing with everything we possibly all users in mind.

thank you very much and we expect more news soon

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Comments

  • EmileEmile Administrator, Athom
    iBeacon + Wi-Fi + GPS + additional NFC tags. It really depends on your situation and tools, so we make a most educated guess as possible
  • angelus_errareangelus_errare Member
    hi Emile..
    Thats Great ! ....I'm hoping to have it early to spend several days in the whole floweditor and add all what to do lol

    thank you very much and much success
    Oscar
  • SommoSommo Member
    how does it works for wifi connection?
    does it search my device on home network (like a ping) to know if i'm at home or not (arriving/leaving?)
  • novaflashnovaflash Member
    Sommo said:
    how does it works for wifi connection?
    does it search my device on home network (like a ping) to know if i'm at home or not (arriving/leaving?)
    Since it would take a lot of fruitless pinging and unnecessary CPU cycles/network traffic to handle this from the Homey side, it would be more logical to assume that the app installed on your smartphone keeps an eye on which WiFi network you're connected to, and if the right network is connected, it makes an API call to the Homey to let it know it's alive.

    I am not working for Athom, but this is just my opinion, or, rather, how I would do it if I had to program this. It's better to do event-driven tasks than polling, after all. It just makes sense. I could be wrong, of course. Only Athom can really answer this one to be absolutely certain.
  • tommyjaytommyjay Member
    novaflash said:
    Sommo said:
    how does it works for wifi connection?
    does it search my device on home network (like a ping) to know if i'm at home or not (arriving/leaving?)
    Since it would take a lot of fruitless pinging and unnecessary CPU cycles/network traffic to handle this from the Homey side, it would be more logical to assume that the app installed on your smartphone keeps an eye on which WiFi network you're connected to, and if the right network is connected, it makes an API call to the Homey to let it know it's alive.

    I am not working for Athom, but this is just my opinion, or, rather, how I would do it if I had to program this. It's better to do event-driven tasks than polling, after all. It just makes sense. I could be wrong, of course. Only Athom can really answer this one to be absolutely certain.
    That is helpful on a scale of dozens of meters or kilometers, but i think @novaflash was more interested in micro locations around the house, like differentiating between sitting at the table and sitting by the couch. I guess that would be done with iBeacons of NFC tags, even though they would have to rely on the position of your phone. meaning if you plug your phone into the charger, and walk around, Homey doesn't really have any idea where you are (inside your home).
  • PimBliekPimBliek Member
    edited February 2016
    @Emile will I be able to trigger flows based on my (phone's) proximity to iBeacons? That would be just insanely and utterly cool. :smile: 
    :astonished: 

  • fuzzybearfuzzybear Member
    tommyjay said:
    novaflash said:
    Sommo said:
    how does it works for wifi connection?
    does it search my device on home network (like a ping) to know if i'm at home or not (arriving/leaving?)
    Since it would take a lot of fruitless pinging and unnecessary CPU cycles/network traffic to handle this from the Homey side, it would be more logical to assume that the app installed on your smartphone keeps an eye on which WiFi network you're connected to, and if the right network is connected, it makes an API call to the Homey to let it know it's alive.

    I am not working for Athom, but this is just my opinion, or, rather, how I would do it if I had to program this. It's better to do event-driven tasks than polling, after all. It just makes sense. I could be wrong, of course. Only Athom can really answer this one to be absolutely certain.
    That is helpful on a scale of dozens of meters or kilometers, but i think @novaflash was more interested in micro locations around the house, like differentiating between sitting at the table and sitting by the couch. I guess that would be done with iBeacons of NFC tags, even though they would have to rely on the position of your phone. meaning if you plug your phone into the charger, and walk around, Homey doesn't really have any idea where you are (inside your home).
    I see a good possibility for a spin off ;) maybe a Homey bracelet or necklace .... Maybe place a nfc tag on the Homey key ring. 
  • rob_houwelingrob_houweling Member
    edited February 2016
    PimBliek said:
    @Emile will I be able to trigger flows based on my (phone's) proximity to iBeacons? That would be just insanely and utterly cool. smile 
    astonished 

    If I understood Emile correctly, homey is an ibeacon itself so no nfc reader or other ibeacon should be necessary tot detect a person.
    I'll try to find the post...

  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited February 2016
    Ibeacons aren't that reliable for domestic use. In most cases the deviation is around 30-50%, small homes with ceilings of 2,5m makes its almost impossible to use them. To make them usefull you need to set the distance to <1-1,5m and you need a bulk of ibeacons to cover the most important spots in a house. With small distances its very preferable to set small advertise times, else you walk in the "zone" and it take X secs. for the magic to kick in.

    Also battery live of Ibeacons is some what doubtful. Short advertise intervals make the battery live drop dramatic.
    And you need a activated BT function, which is very bad for battery live of your smartphone.

    NFC is only max. 10-15cm and in most cases also not usefull.

    Here's some more info:
    http://www.aislelabs.com/reports/beacon-guide/
    http://reprage.com/post/How-accurate-are-estimote-ibeacons
    http://blog.shinetech.com/2014/02/17/the-beacon-experiments-low-energy-bluetooth-devices-in-action/
  • novaflashnovaflash Member
    It is possible to inject an RFID chip into your arm. Just like pets get chipped. But isn't that going a little far..?  Also interesting idea; UV ink QR tattoo and UV QR scanner. Invisible but functional (but a little weird on the dance floor).

    Anyways, I digress. According to other posts indeed the Homey should work as an iBeacon and as I understand it, it supports the 4 default proximity levels. Like, right on top of the device (within .5 meters), near (like 2 or 3 meters away) or further away but still within normal reach of the iBeacon range, and beyond but probably flakey connection. See this picture;

  • RobebarRobebar Member
    Maybe this could be a solution, 
    http://touchless.codeplex.com/

    its using a webcam to detect the position of objects.. 

    regards
    Robert
  • tommyjaytommyjay Member
    edited February 2016
    fuzzybear said:
    tommyjay said:
    novaflash said:
    Sommo said:
    how does it works for wifi connection?
    does it search my device on home network (like a ping) to know if i'm at home or not (arriving/leaving?)
    Since it would take a lot of fruitless pinging and unnecessary CPU cycles/network traffic to handle this from the Homey side, it would be more logical to assume that the app installed on your smartphone keeps an eye on which WiFi network you're connected to, and if the right network is connected, it makes an API call to the Homey to let it know it's alive.

    I am not working for Athom, but this is just my opinion, or, rather, how I would do it if I had to program this. It's better to do event-driven tasks than polling, after all. It just makes sense. I could be wrong, of course. Only Athom can really answer this one to be absolutely certain.
    That is helpful on a scale of dozens of meters or kilometers, but i think @novaflash was more interested in micro locations around the house, like differentiating between sitting at the table and sitting by the couch. I guess that would be done with iBeacons of NFC tags, even though they would have to rely on the position of your phone. meaning if you plug your phone into the charger, and walk around, Homey doesn't really have any idea where you are (inside your home).
    I see a good possibility for a spin off maybe a Homey bracelet or necklace .... Maybe place a nfc tag on the Homey key ring. 
    Don't forger that that the NFC tags only have a few centimeter reading distance. What you're saying basically means that you would have to have multiple NFC readers scattered around your house, and then you'd have to pretty much touch the reader with your bracelet. Also these readers would have to be connected to Homey. Sounds like a loooooot of work, and there should be a simpler way to do this! smile As @novaflash pointed out, iBeacons would probably be better, although you'd have to have your phone on you all the time. But proximity wise, it works better, seeing you don't need to touch anything. Then again, it's still a bit wonky. I have an iBeacon in my car which allows me to automatically start Waze and other apps, the downfall is that sometimes it activates when I'm 10m from the car, other times it activates just as I sit down in the seat. Optimally, what @Robebar   points out would be the best solution, meaning you don't have to have anything on you and are tracked as a human. But this is still in the future, I wanted to do a project with micro location indoor tracking, and sadly the technology isn't really there to be commercially used yet.
  • SommoSommo Member
    So now the question is: what ibeacons device/tag should i buy? i have ios/apple device to let know the beacon whera i am in the home.
    anyway, i'll like to know how homey works to know, when i'm coming/leaving home, what's protocol and what the idea use to know that
  • compadrecompadre Member
    Started some time ago another thread but possibly fits here too now. Possibly in addition to phone also on a fitness tracker can be used as location "tracker"?They have bt too, some nfc, and some of them open Api. Carrying around another tag or beacon sounds less interesting option for me. anyhow I will closely follow this thread :)
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    totally agree with the last part of @tommyjay previous post.
    Ibeacons sounds great, but the distance of which the react various a lot (see my last post with test).

    NFC can work, but is not practical because you need (also what tommyjay said) almost touch them to let them communicate. Most building control systems work with some sort of NFC technology and I don't like these systems. Mostly because you need a very good "touch" to make it work and just walking by the reader with the NFC-card in my pocket isn't working reliable.

    @compadre;
    Fitness tracker won't work, this because its the big device(smartphone/tablet/laptop) that scans the surroundings for Ibeacons and if it find beacons, its the big device that send the received data (tag id, signal strength,etc) to the vendor. Most fitness trackers doesn't have the ability to send (actively) on there own data to the outside world. 



    Good indoor location is,with the current technology, a big challenge.
  • PimBliekPimBliek Member
    @rob_houweling I understood Homey is an iBeacon in itself, but it would be cool if you could use iBeacon's to let Homey know where you are in the house. But, as said, this could be quite hard to achieve. It would be very very cool indeed and I do want to try it, if Homey can do it. That's why I ask @Emile if it can :).
  • PimBliekPimBliek Member
    Possible use case: have an iBeacon near the front- and backdoors. Using this Homey knows you are approaching the home when you are not in Homey's own range yet :).
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited February 2016
    Homey can probably work as some sort of Ibeacon. 
    But let say Homey is in the livingsroom 2m from the backyard and detects you at 4m distance.
    Where are you in "the house"? 
    You can be 2m in the backyard, directly above Homey on the first floor, in your kitchen, relaxing on the couch.

    You need triangulation for good location measurement (that's how Cellular/GPS/Glonass/GoogleLocation(WiFi)/etc) systems work.
  • rob_houwelingrob_houweling Member
    Same sort of discussion here:


    I have a couple of small (coin size) iBeacons and will probably create an app myself to achieve location detection in my house.

  • PimBliekPimBliek Member
    WIth iBeacon technology you can exactly do that, triangulation :).
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited February 2016
    Ibeacons are not the holy grail for indoor location.
    In most cases the are very expensive, have a short battery lifetime and the accuracy is in most cases very disappointing.
    The better the accuracy, the more expensive the beacons will be. If you set them to small distances, you need shorter intervals which will result in shorter battery lifetimes and that means quicker replacement of empty beacons which results in more costs. 

    The bigger the home, the easier it is (more space for non overlap beacon zones).

    @PimBliek:
    Yes its possible! I wait for your test results :smile: 

    Check the links i posted yesterday. How could you determine a location in a small livingroom when the accuracy is 50% over 2m? 
    Within 10-20 minutes i post a Visio sketch from our livingroom :wink: 


  • rob_houwelingrob_houweling Member
    MarcoF said:
    Ibeacons are not the holy grail for indoor location.



    What is the holy grail to indoor location according to you? I see no other solution, with current technology, than using iBeacons...
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited February 2016
    MarcoF said:
    Good indoor location is,with the current technology, a big challenge.
    I have no idea if its possible with the current tech.

    IBeacons are made for tracking and/or zone in (big) store to see if marketing is working. To present a Ad to an person who's in front of a stores window/door. Not for determining the exact location of a person in a "small" space.

    Eventually everything is possible, but it will cost big bucks. For very precise and accurate measurement you need a large amount of Beacons with a very small advertise time to pickup the smallest movements. 


    :heart:

    Second edit:
    Our small '80 "living room" its about ~9m x ~5m.
    To cover the most important spots (red) with min. 3 beacons (shed and backdoor only 2) I need about 11 Beacons.... With a short advertise time of <=500ms most of the beacons are out of juice within 12 months. 
    11 x €25 = €275,= per year on beacons.....

    Then the accuracy is still a point of concern because most beacons have a deviation of about 30-50% so to get a good and 100% coverage the red spots i need probably 2-3 beacons more.

    13-14 x €25 = €338 per year on beacons




  • rob_houwelingrob_houweling Member
    So iBeacons it is then :p
  • keverjeroenkeverjeroen Member
    What I like to do is place a NFC tag reader in the hallway and give the wife, kid and myself a NFC key/card/whatever. If someone enter the home, just scan the NFC tag and Homey knows who is home. 
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited February 2016
    What I like to do is place a NFC tag reader in the hallway and give the wife, kid and myself a NFC key/card/whatever. If someone enter the home, just scan the NFC tag and Homey knows who is home. 
    great point!
    But not so easy;
    https://forum.athom.com/discussion/614/benext-rfid-nfc-tag-reader#latest

    option with "zones":


    everybody has to decide for itself if beacons are there solution for indoor location. But I think its a wast of money, time, batteries, nature, etc.
  • rob_houwelingrob_houweling Member
    There are iBeacons available that have a range of hundreds of meters... not too expensive
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    edited February 2016
    @rob_houweling ;;;;
    +1

    WiFi could also work then :smile:

    With 1 or 2 Beacons its impossible te detect motion direction and/or precise location.
    Most Beacons have 30-50% deviation, so if you use one beacon set to 15m the range the result can be 7,5-22m distance from the beacon. Such a beacon could cover almost whole our house and garden, but if i'm in range the beacon can't tell if I'm on the attic, backyard shed, in the frontyard, in the livingroom or tacking a shower... pretty useless...
  • rob_houwelingrob_houweling Member
    I agree. You would need at least 3 to do triangulation. It can be pretty precise.

    Popular iBeacon & Indoor positioning system videos:
  • MarcoFMarcoF Member
    Great video! You could use there offer to contact them for indoor services :wink: 

    The question is; how many Beacons do the use to cover these floors. 

    On that big building floor the only use a hand full of POI's.
    So the can use few Beacons with big distances.

    The smaller the space and the more POI, the more beacons you need for a precise location.
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