very bad z-wave range

MartijnDeRhoter

Is there anything that can be done about the " Please wait until Z-Wave is ready" or "Something went wrong" when trying to pair a device?

ZperX

@Emile Thank you for your response. I am sure the many things are limited by the standard chip. Does this test includes the pure non powered configurations? I am getting 4-4.5 meters range without obstruction. Not sure if that would pass the test. The weird thing is that the ZW+ has worse range than the old ZW. That does not make sense it should be the way around. Something is not quite right.

MarcoF

@ZperX ;
Are you familiar with Slack and did you do some research on how Z-Wave mesh networks work?

Fire69

I just moved all my z-wave stuff to Homey, ground and first floor.  Everything working as expected.
I don't have a big house, but the rollers upstairs are +10m away and 1 concrete floor inbetween.

bvdbos

http://blog.smartthings.com/iot101/a-guide-to-wireless-range-repeaters/

MarcoF

@BasVanDenBosch ;


------------------------------------------
please read on how "to build" a stable Z-Wave nmesh network and/or how Z-Wave networks work:http://blog.smartthings.com/iot101/a-guide-to-wireless-range-repeaters/
Probably the main cause of the problems lay in a inefficient/not stable/not well designed Z-Wave mesh network.
------------------------------------------

If you use that link, add the rest of it to

The link talks about the fact Z-Wave node not automagicly "re-parent". Don't know if that only with Z-Wave or also with Z-Wave+. But if you use Z-Wave(non plus) node, then "re-parent" is probably not happening. I think that's why most of the Z-Wave controller on the marked, have the "repair node" and/or "repair network" option.

Unfortunately Homey is lacking both....
This, based on the article, can result in very unreliable and unpredictable results. 
I read story of users where Nodes only partially updating there sensor info. This could mean the communication is bad and while there's still communication, the devices isn't "re-parenting" and the situation stays as it is.

But who am i?!

bvdbos

Just to chime in: I have a Zigbee+ network (plugwise) at home and one of the offices, all powered plugs (smile's). When you create a mesh the network is superfast.

MarcoF

My Vera3 Z-Wave network is rock solid! 
Yes I sometimes need to repair some node because I moved them, but its working. 

Also people are complaining a lot on Homey and Z-Wave, but the have no ..... clue how its working and/or how to build a proper Mesh network. Think this is something Athom needs to pay attention to.... else it going to be a very painful Z-Wave experience for both the user and Athom.

Fire69

MarcoF said:

@BasVanDenBosch ;


------------------------------------------
please read on how "to build" a stable Z-Wave nmesh network and/or how Z-Wave networks work:http://blog.smartthings.com/iot101/a-guide-to-wireless-range-repeaters/
Probably the main cause of the problems lay in a inefficient/not stable/not well designed Z-Wave mesh network.
------------------------------------------

If you use that link, add the rest of it to

The link talks about the fact Z-Wave node not automagicly "re-parent". Don't know if that only with Z-Wave or also with Z-Wave+. But if you use Z-Wave(non plus) node, then "re-parent" is probably not happening. I think that's why most of the Z-Wave controller on the marked, have the "repair node" and/or "repair network" option.

Unfortunately Homey is lacking both....
This, based on the article, can result in very unreliable and unpredictable results. 
I read story of users where Nodes only partially updating there sensor info. This could mean the communication is bad and while there's still communication, the devices isn't "re-parenting" and the situation stays as it is.

But who am i?!

What do you mean?  Jeroen confirmed that Homey uses the default z-wave repair/re-pair function built in to the chip.
https://forum.athom.com/discussion/comment/28955/#Comment_28955

You even thanked him for the info 

ZperX

MarcoF said:

@ZperX ;
Are you familiar with Slack and did you do some research on how Z-Wave mesh networks work?

Thank you for your kind comment. I don`t know why this comment. I can`t have mesh there or outdoor.

ZperX

Back to the topic: why ZW+ has smaller range than normal ZW when it should have wider range? Non mesh connection to emphasize it before I get an other undeserved slap.

MarcoF

Fire69 said:

MarcoF said:

@BasVanDenBosch ;


------------------------------------------
please read on how "to build" a stable Z-Wave nmesh network and/or how Z-Wave networks work:http://blog.smartthings.com/iot101/a-guide-to-wireless-range-repeaters/
Probably the main cause of the problems lay in a inefficient/not stable/not well designed Z-Wave mesh network.
------------------------------------------

If you use that link, add the rest of it to

The link talks about the fact Z-Wave node not automagicly "re-parent". Don't know if that only with Z-Wave or also with Z-Wave+. But if you use Z-Wave(non plus) node, then "re-parent" is probably not happening. I think that's why most of the Z-Wave controller on the marked, have the "repair node" and/or "repair network" option.

Unfortunately Homey is lacking both....
This, based on the article, can result in very unreliable and unpredictable results. 
I read story of users where Nodes only partially updating there sensor info. This could mean the communication is bad and while there's still communication, the devices isn't "re-parenting" and the situation stays as it is.

But who am i?!

What do you mean?  Jeroen confirmed that Homey uses the default z-wave repair/re-pair function built in to the chip.
https://forum.athom.com/discussion/comment/28955/#Comment_28955

You even thanked him for the info 

Yes and his;

Please keep in mind that the healing process starts after a devices becomes unavailable and takes some time, during which the device remains unavailable

The total communication with a Node most be stopped. 

If the communication is still partly there, then the parent<>node association keeps the same. So if a Node managed to send 1 of the 4 sensors binary data sets to the controller, then the communication is still there and add a repeater won't help. 

There's some sort of force needed to say to the node(or controller); You bitch, find a new path!!

To me that's the "repair node" and/or "repair network" option.

And yes if the communication fails totally, then the node and controller will look for a new path. When the don't find a new path within XXXX time span, the Node will be reported as dead.

Fire69

ZperX said:

MarcoF said:

@ZperX ;
Are you familiar with Slack and did you do some research on how Z-Wave mesh networks work?

Thank you for your kind comment. I don`t know why this comment. I can`t have mesh there or outdoor.

Don't mind him, he means it nicer than he sometimes says it 

Can you give some details about your devices and their placement throughout your home?

MarcoF

ZperX said:

Back to the topic: why ZW+ has smaller range than normal ZW when it should have wider range? Non mesh connection to emphasize it before I get an other undeserved slap.

Z-Wave = Mesh!
A Mesh only based on battery powered node is very unpredictable/unreliable!

You cant expect a battery powered Z-Wave device to go through 15cm concreet, insulated glass, in rooms packed with WiFi, GSM, Microwave, etc signals.

Please build a proper Mesh before blaming Homey.

MarcoF

Fire69 said:

ZperX said:

MarcoF said:

@ZperX ;
Are you familiar with Slack and did you do some research on how Z-Wave mesh networks work?

Thank you for your kind comment. I don`t know why this comment. I can`t have mesh there or outdoor.

Don't mind him, he means it nicer than he sometimes says it 

Can you give some details about your devices and their placement throughout your home?

I know a lot of Forums(and well respected Dutch Gathering) where it HIGHLY appreciate if users do there own research before asking or complaining  

Fire69

MarcoF said:

A Mesh only based on battery powered node is very unpredictable/unreliable!

There is no mesh when only using battery powered nodes! So yes, that would be pretty unreliable...  

MarcoF

Fire69 said:

MarcoF said:

A Mesh only based on battery powered node is very unpredictable/unreliable!

There is no mesh when only using battery powered nodes! So yes, that would be pretty unreliable...  

Still in Z-Wave its called a "Mesh" network (I think) and in network terms its more a "Star" topology.

In the end a "Z-Wave network" with only battery powered nodes is asking for troubles

(are we agreed to something? )

msmits

Maybe it's a stupid question, but can a z-wave range extender be a solution to fix this issue?

Fire69

MarcoF said:

Fire69 said:

MarcoF said:

A Mesh only based on battery powered node is very unpredictable/unreliable!

There is no mesh when only using battery powered nodes! So yes, that would be pretty unreliable...  

Still in Z-Wave its called a "Mesh" network (I think) and in network terms its more a "Star" topology.

In the end a "Z-Wave network" with only battery powered nodes is asking for troubles

(are we agreed to something? )

Mesh and Star are not the same!


But I know what you mean, and I agree with you 

ZperX

Seems like can`t repeat enough there is no mesh. Not at that side of the house at least (I have on the other side). And can`t have node because there is no power cable there. And again: no obstruction just thin air. A 10m direct view range should be the minimum for home automation application. My wireless mouse has 15m+ range but that meant to be close to the computer.

So the question: why ZW+ has smaller range than normal ZW when it should have wider range? (Fibaro multisensor Gen4 vs Gen5)

@Fire69 It is a brick house, in the english countryside. No concrete, internally everything is plasterboard, the floor/ceiling is wooden beams with MDF on top, plasterboard at the bottom. No microwave. Wireless devices: 433Mhz LightwaveRF dimmers, sockets. Wifi gadgets. Couple of fibaro multisensors and Fibaro RGBW as powered nod. And of course 4G signal. That is it.

MarcoF

@ZperX ;
Please read and take actions or accept your situation. 

ZperX

Are you trolling?

MarcoF

ZperX said:

Are you trolling?

Nope I'm very serious. 

Also found this:

Z-Wave Plus extended features include:

• Significant increased range - up to 150m (clear air)

There's no clear air in our homes.

Fire69

ZperX said:

@Fire69 It is a brick house, in the english countryside. No concrete, internally everything is plasterboard, the floor/ceiling is wooden beams with MDF on top, plasterboard at the bottom. No microwave. Wireless devices: 433Mhz LightwaveRF dimmers, sockets. Wifi gadgets. Couple of fibaro multisensors and Fibaro RGBW as powered nod. And of course 4G signal. That is it.

And it's just the multisensors that are giving you these problems?

ZperX

Also found this:

Z-Wave Plus extended features include:

• Significant increased range - up to 150m (clear air)

So than why do I get these rather rude comments when questioning if 4-5 meters range is adequate for ZW+? 

ZperX

Fire69 said:

ZperX said:

@Fire69 It is a brick house, in the english countryside. No concrete, internally everything is plasterboard, the floor/ceiling is wooden beams with MDF on top, plasterboard at the bottom. No microwave. Wireless devices: 433Mhz LightwaveRF dimmers, sockets. Wifi gadgets. Couple of fibaro multisensors and Fibaro RGBW as powered nod. And of course 4G signal. That is it.

And it's just the multisensors that are giving you these problems?

The RGBW controller is about 3.5m away from Homey, that works as NOD between Homey and the sensors upstairs. There is no issue there. The issue is with the sensor trying to connect to homey from a 5+ meter distance. I would need only 7-8 meters (without obstacle, direct view to Homey). And it is not one a broken sensor. I was swapping them around.

MarcoF

Radio waves: Absorption
• Plasterboard / Drywall Wall: 3-5dB
• Metal Door: 6-10dB
• Window: 3dB
• Concrete Wall: 6-15dB
• Block Wall: 4-6dB

https://nsrc.org/workshops/2015/pacnog18-wireless/raw-attachment/wiki/Track1Agenda/a_Basic_Radio_Physics.pdf

Plasterboard can have (almost) the same blocking/absorption of radio waves as concrete/block walls. 

Please @ZperX try to install some powered nodes and/or repeaters.

Good night all.

ZperX

How many times I said there is no obstruction and nodes can`t be installed, not there. And... there you go again. Please stop trolling! Seriously.

MarcoF

I'm trying to help. 

MartijnDeRhoter

I must admit I have the same thing, Fibaro Z-Wave+ sensors in clear line of sight from Homey that drop repeatedly. I've added powered nodes (Dimmer 2) and tried installing a Double Switch 2 as well, but that won't even pair.

It's weird that cheap Kaku hardware has no problem reaching the far side of the house, through concrete walls without any issues (doorbell!) whereas Z-Wave+ seems to have a range shorter than I am.

I'm willing to invest in extra hardware to make it work, but currently I'm not convinced that it'll help.

@ZperX, forums in general are not known for people's ability to read, especially when at the same time trying to make a point