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How does multi-zone heating work when using remote controlled radiator valves?
Michael
Member
I have been reading some topics regarding the usage of remote controlled radiator valves to allow the possibility to create room independent heating control.
I've checked the Smartwares radiator valve and the Danfoss z-wave valve. Both seem to be able to receive a set-point from a controller and to send back the set-point if this is changed locally on the valve. You have no control over the valve opening and closing and you cannot get the actual temperature readout.
So with this it seems to be impossible to heat individual rooms. If my thermostat is in the living room set to 21 degrees and the current temperature in the room is 22 degrees my heating system will not turn on, because there is no demand for hot water.
If the setpoint of the valve in the bathroom is 22 degrees and the actual temperature in the bathroom is 17 degrees nothing will happen, because the thermostat is not requesting any heating.
So for this to work you should ideally have:
Thanks!
I've checked the Smartwares radiator valve and the Danfoss z-wave valve. Both seem to be able to receive a set-point from a controller and to send back the set-point if this is changed locally on the valve. You have no control over the valve opening and closing and you cannot get the actual temperature readout.
So with this it seems to be impossible to heat individual rooms. If my thermostat is in the living room set to 21 degrees and the current temperature in the room is 22 degrees my heating system will not turn on, because there is no demand for hot water.
If the setpoint of the valve in the bathroom is 22 degrees and the actual temperature in the bathroom is 17 degrees nothing will happen, because the thermostat is not requesting any heating.
So for this to work you should ideally have:
- Temperature sensors in each room, to be able to determine if the actual temperature in the room
- Being able to control the radiator valve from your control system
- Being able to control the demand for hot water from the heating system
Thanks!
Comments
The link CC can create zones and will tell ur heating system to go on and give some heat to 1 particular zone.
Point of interest: when all ur valves in the home are thermostatic valves u must have a bypass in ur system!
Also point of interest: all heating systems can do the on/off protocol, not every system understands the "open therm" protocol.
If you boiler has a on/off contact, you can place a Zwave Relais in parallel to you thermostat. With the relais you can force the boiler to heat the CH system. Or if your boiler uses OpenTherm, you can use an OTG of Nest and play with the setpoint to force the boiler to heat.
Some device to measure the temp, like the thermocoin.
Some thermostatic valves like stated before.
Tell homey to:
if thermocoin is under 20 degrees in masterbedroom,
then open valve
and send command to the relais
shouldnt be that hard to accomplish with some help from some great forum members.
What do you want to accomplish with this topic? A plug and play solution, help by building your idea or just an conformation your idea is possible?
Plug and play: buy a Honeywell Evo home, works GREAT!
help: then we first need a homey
Conformation: check!
I also saw in another topic (link) that people were buying the Danfoss valves. I'm not sure if they are aware of the limitations these valves have.
So I'm not looking for an of the shelf system like the Evo home. Simply because it's a closed system that doesn't link to Homey. That's what got me started thinking if Homey could play a roll here.
I'm planning to install a gas fireplace in my living room. That will probably increase the temperature a lot directly in the living room making my Toon thermostat switch off my heating system, so it will never send any heat to the other rooms in my home.
So to be honest I'm not yet to a conclusion on what fits best. Prerequisites are: 1. Should work with Homey, 2. Should work with my girlfriend, 3. Should be reliable.
Let's see what other ideas people come up with.
they did say they might look into it, but they did not say they definatly will
http://www.robbshop.nl/benext-heating-control
And I just got 2 of these
http://www.robbshop.nl/ekomet-z-wave-radiator-thermostaatkraan
these valves support both temperature measurement and setpoint so you're not required to install a seperate thermostat (althrough it depends per room if themperature measurement at the valve is the right place)
I first start with the valve (my current valve has M28
and most smart valves have M30 so I'm now waiting for an adapter to arrive, so I can install the valves.
If that's working with my current fibaro set then I'll add the benext heating control between my current old skool modulating thermostat to see if the benext actually can overide the heating.
if thats working I'll add a bypass and replace my other valves to be able to create heating zones.
Homey should be able to support this since all are z-wave as soon homey supports all required command classes (which it currently doesn't
-> @Taco : any progress on heating related command classes?
in the situation that homey would fail (which I can't Imagen
and if Toon or another smart thermostat is going to support heating zones with open-therm and zwave support, maybe I might consider replacing the benext module.
If this all ain't going to work, I've only invested in 2 valves (which will prevent heating from rooms which are already at temperature, so no lost value after all) and a benext heating control unit.
And if wanted, I can sell all zwave heating items and consider buying a evohome once again with the knowlege that I couln't do it better and hope Honeywell has opened up their API in the meantime.
Whatever you do, I would recommend you to start small to try if the systems works as required. If not try to sell it to prevent you loss. If it works, add more valves.
BTW, check if your current valve is already M30 and of not see if you can find an adapter for it before buying any valve. It will spare you a lot of irritation ;-)
just my 2 cents..
I've used the EvoHome system with the HR80 valves. Almost all radiators are located underneath windows which is in most cases the coldest location in a room. When I programmed the HR80 on a 18°c setpoint, the room got easily >20°c and in cold month the temperature gone up to 21-22°c because the valve didn't close.
So I needed to program all valves at temperature (desiredTemp - 4), on cold days this could still result in a higher then desired room temperature...
Some month's later I got the Danfoss LC13 valves in combination with external sensors and that work, after a few weeks programming and with a lot of trail and error, very good!
Now with the heat pump we are back old school thermostatic valves. I open and close these valves manually when outside temperatures are dropping or raising dramatically to keep the house on a steady and WAF OK temperature.
LC13 are shipped with 2 adapters:
0m3 gas and 2400kWh for heating, DHW and hotfill washingmachine.
Before the heat pump we used 500m3 gas for only heating and DHW.
Please place a thermometer on the windowsill and see what window ventilation and down draft does
Please let me know your finding!
Edit:
http://www.frijduurzaam.nl/
https://www.frijmann.nl/websolarlog/sanden-aquaeco2-heat-pump.php
Maybe a thing like thermocoin can be the solution to that?
In my house the insulation is insane.
Triple glass all around with insane heat protection and even burglar proof.
Was just wondering why 18 degrees inside would change with outside temperature
Where did you read that?
I'm curious though, What is DHW? I'm a complete n00b when it comes to energie saving and such so,don't hold it against me ;!
I said;
kW != kWh
kW is Power (not time related)
kWh is energy (time related)
The Heat pump uses 2400kWh of energy annually
The Heat pump produces average of (3200W) of thermal heat and takes 1000W from the grid.
Heat pump efficiency:
COP = produced / used
COP = 3.2 = 3200 / 1000
Let say the heat pump runs for 30 min. then it;
used over time 500Wh over time
((1.0*(30/60))*1000)
produced 1600Wh thermal energy over time
((3.2*(30/60))*1000)
Efficieny;
COP = 3.2 = 1600 / 500
DHW = Domestic Hot Water (warm tap water)
Thanks for explaining!
Was reading 0m3 and 2400kwh
From 500m3 so was assuming u used 500m3 and now u use 0m3 and 2400kwh.
According to your calculations it's a good idea but replacing all components cost some euro's.
When building a new home we have a better choise maybe?
I have a Remeha Quinta 28c with Celcia 20 Thermostat and is supported by Be Next heating control. You stated:
"Homey should be able to support this since all are z-wave as soon homey supports all required command classes (which it currently doesn't)" so i had a look at the Trello site and found out that
First have to wait for my Homey ofcourse
I experimented with eq3 Max valves with my Jaga convectors but dropped them when I installed my heatpump. I found them pretty much impossible to work with low-temperature convectors to arrive at the right room temperature. I think what I need instead are valves that just open and close.
Your reason for dropping the eq3's was also my reason to drop de Danfoss and EvoHome.
Most of our rooms are not "heated" and only "frost protection".
On cold days I set all valves 0,5-1 point higher, this happens maybe 5-10 time per heating season and works OK for us.